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  #16  
Old 09-02-2014
lukpac lukpac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by axeeugene View Post
So just to recap: Guy quits band. Remaining members of the band carry on without him - to greater success, mind you, than they had when said guy was in the band - and guy grouses that they shouldn't have continued to call themselves by their name. Guy runs into money troubles and begs to be let back into said band. Band lets him back in, but his "precondition" for his supplication being accepted is that he gets what he wanted in the first place and band doesn't get to call themselves by their name without him. Guy quits band again and grouses with further vitriol in the press about not getting what he wants.

Some classy shit going on here.
Without knowing more, I hesitate to put all of the blame on Mark. We don't know (well, *I* don't know, anyway) exactly what went down, supposed "Why don’t you hit me?" comment aside. It's possible that Mark had/has some legitimate grips. I don't know. I don't want to blame Gary (and/or the rest of the band), but I don't think it's right to automatically let him off the hook either.

That said, regardless of however the StarTribune got wind of the situation initially, Mark certainly seemed to be dishing it out without restraint. It's unclear why, other than simply to vent, since he talks about "making amends" but also states "I don’t ever want to see Gary Louris again". Those two things don't jive. What was he trying to accomplish?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
when the guy who:

1. founded the band

2. named it

3. wrote most of the songs

...asks for someone to not use the name, it's probably time to move on, respectfully.


It just doesn't look good. The post-Olson years don't seem to appeal to anyone below 45, and they're playing shows to 20 people at a rehab clinic.
It's unclear if you're attempting a failed career at comedy, or if you're severely misguided, or if you're just a troll, but regardless, just the same shit, another day. Regarding your "points":

1. Regardless of who made first contact, Marc was there from the start and Gary was a half step behind. To claim that Marc and Gary are somehow less important historically than Mark is pretty absurd.

2. Uh, what? The person who named the band is important how? Are you suggesting that Led Zeppelin should have never existed since Keith Moon, who came up with the name, was never in the band?

3. Early on, yes, Mark wrote most of the songs. As time progressed, not so much. Obviously he had very little, if any, input in the Sound of Lies/Smile/Rainy Day Music songs. And some of the band's biggest hits - Waiting For The Sun, I'd Run Away, I'm Gonna Make You Love Me, Save It For A Rainy Day, etc - were written by Gary.

As far as not appealing to anyone under the age of 45, the fans I've seen and talked to would suggest otherwise. Do you have anything to substantiate that claim, or did you just make it up? Where is this mass of fans that enjoys the albums with Mark but not the albums without him?

As I've said before, if I had the choice of going to see Mark or Gary solo, my choice would be Gary in a heartbeat. That said, there are definitely lots of Mark songs that I like quite a bit; Pray For Me is one of my favorites from the band. I don't think it's fair to Mark to be trashing him, other than to say it's an unfortunate situation and Mark's response to it seems to be questionable at best.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2014
JPM JPM is offline
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If Gary had promised Mark in both instances that he would not use the name without him, I don't think Gary comes of great - at all. That said I believe it would of been better for Mark not to air his views publicly.
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2014
lukpac lukpac is offline
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Originally Posted by NY Fan View Post
- For the Jayhawks, that's a lot of dirty laundry in the press. Wow! I wonder if that was pre-cleanup Gary, and if it was, I wonder if now-clean Gary has any regrets. Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't!
From the article:

“A lot of things kind of hit the wall” from 2010 to 2012, Louris said in a video interview to promote HazelFest. “I was so self-centered. Everything was about me. I couldn’t function. I think I probably had a mental breakdown.”
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  #19  
Old 09-02-2014
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Icehaid Icehaid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
when the guy who:

1. founded the band

2. named it

3. wrote most of the songs

...asks for someone to not use the name, it's probably time to move on, respectfully.


It just doesn't look good. The post-Olson years don't seem to appeal to anyone below 45, and they're playing shows to 20 people at a rehab clinic.
Oy, the tumor has returned to the Board. Oh well. Soooo anyway:

1. Olson sounds like a jealous, petulant child.

2. Shouldn't you be off at Yellowstone sticking your face in Old Faithful this time of year?
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  #20  
Old 09-02-2014
Brown Jenkin Brown Jenkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NY Fan View Post
Some reactions to this article, and also the posts here:

- Having said that, the relatively brief Mark II era did not lead to great success for the band - and it certainly didn't lead to an exciting era on this board.
Actually there were way more posts on this forum around Ready for the Flood and Mockingbird Time.

The response to the "Smile" lineup has been very weak here, with posts trickling in.
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  #21  
Old 09-02-2014
Brown Jenkin Brown Jenkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukpac View Post

That said, regardless of however the StarTribune got wind of the situation initially, Mark certainly seemed to be dishing it out without restraint. It's unclear why, other than simply to vent, since he talks about "making amends" but also states "I don’t ever want to see Gary Louris again". Those two things don't jive. What was he trying to accomplish?
It's timed right alongside the release of his new album, so you be the judge.


Quote:
2. Uh, what? The person who named the band is important how? Are you suggesting that Led Zeppelin should have never existed since Keith Moon, who came up with the name, was never in the band?
This is a terrible analogy. Olson founded the band and named it. And when he asks for the name not to be used, it should be at least considered.



Quote:
As far as not appealing to anyone under the age of 45, the fans I've seen and talked to would suggest otherwise. Do you have anything to substantiate that claim, or did you just make it up? Where is this mass of fans that enjoys the albums with Mark but not the albums without him?
They showed up at the last tour, when The Jayhawks with Olson were playing much larger venues and festivals.

This whole "reissue" thing feels like Spinal Tap's jazz odyssey.



Quote:
As I've said before, if I had the choice of going to see Mark or Gary solo, my choice would be Gary in a heartbeat. That said, there are definitely lots of Mark songs that I like quite a bit; Pray For Me is one of my favorites from the band. I don't think it's fair to Mark to be trashing him, other than to say it's an unfortunate situation and Mark's response to it seems to be questionable at best.

I wouldn't see either live these days. The Mockingbird Time tour was the best I've seen them since the Smile tour. Everything else has been meh. The energy just isn't there. I did enjoy the Salvation Blues tour with Olson when he had Jimmy Hey on drums, but I'm not big on the duo he has going now.
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  #22  
Old 09-02-2014
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sacred roots sacred roots is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
when the guy who:

1. founded the band

2. named it

3. wrote most of the songs

...asks for someone to not use the name, it's probably time to move on, respectfully.


It just doesn't look good. The post-Olson years don't seem to appeal to anyone below 45, and they're playing shows to 20 people at a rehab clinic.
And what age group does a guy wearing grandpa vests and ugly sweaters appeal to? OK, sorry that was a cheap shot...

2 of these 3 above statements are factually incorrect. Olson was not the sole namer of the band (hint: the one guy in the band who's been there every second of its existence and is the biggest fan of The Band/The Hawks in the world, and who also is one of the legal owners of the name, might have had something to do with it) and while Olson no doubt dominated the songwriting for the first few years, "most" is a wildly inaccurate overall assessment. By the early 90s, the songwriting was essentially evenly split and if we want to look at the band's most commercially successful and popular songs - not to mention the totality of the band's 29 year existence - Louris is the clear winner.

As for the band's commercial success post-Olson, the band did just fine 15 years ago and they're doing just fine now. The recent Euro tour and selected US summer dates went great and ticket sales are strong for the upcoming US tour. Fans seem to be actually excited to see a vibrant, engaged band not bogged down by internal strife, something born out by the near universal praise for this years shows to be found in the social media, something that most definitely wasn't the case a few years ago (especially in 2012). Also, unlike the 2009-2012 version of the band, the current lineup is performing music from all eras of the band's long history while, understandably, concentrating on the material from the recent reissues, making for a much more pleasurable fan experience.

Oh yeah, for the record, the attendance at the "rehab clinic" was 1500-2000 at a second year festival in a location an hour away from MSP where no booze was served. Speaking of which, the implication that playing a "rehab clinic" is somehow a "bad" billing (ala Spinal Tap playing an afternoon tea party at an Air Force Base) is particularly offensive and only an ignorant, insensitive troll would make that disparagement given Gary's very public and brave dealings with substance abuse and recovery in recent years and his subsequent dedication to helping the recovery community whenever possible.

As for the age old name dispute... A case could be made that the name should've been changed in 1996 and Gary publicly stated exactly that on more than one occasion during that time. However the record company left them no choice: either continue on or make your record somewhere else (this is addressed in the liner notes on the recent SOL reissue). For better or worse (depending on your point of view) the world got 3 more Jayhawks records from 1997-2003, records that are widely loved and praised (anyone who followed the band during that period knows that this is beyond dispute).

The band in its current lineup has every right to earn a living supporting albums that were made after Olson had quit the band, and to do so using a name they are perfectly - and legally - entitled to use. For someone to take issue with that - and to use vague, unsubstantiated "promises" as evidence - says a lot more about that person than his former bandmates. Similarly, making light of someone's recovery and mentioning an incident were you physically bully a partner and supposed friend to the point of a breakdown isn't exactly a way to make yourself come off as very sympathetic - or even rational. (note to Olson: hire a new PR person, stat!).

Bitterness and negativity are terrible personality traits and will surely pave the way to estrangement from proper society, not to mention a surefire way to guarantee an increasingly irrelevant career.
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  #23  
Old 09-02-2014
lukpac lukpac is offline
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Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
I wouldn't see either live these days. The Mockingbird Time tour was the best I've seen them since the Smile tour. Everything else has been meh. The energy just isn't there.
To each their own, and I'm sure even plenty of Gary fans will disagree with me, but I've found the Gary and "Gary and friends" shows over the past few years far more entertaining than the shows with the 1995 lineup. The relatively static setlists of the full band shows didn't help. As always, I hesitate to be too critical, because I don't want it to seem like I'm ragging on the band, but "meh" is what I often felt at the full band shows.

Also, thumbs up to PD's post.
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  #24  
Old 09-02-2014
Brown Jenkin Brown Jenkin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sacred roots View Post
And what age group does a guy wearing grandpa vests and ugly sweaters appeal to? OK, sorry that was a cheap shot...
And how is that any different from Gary's Dana Carvey Church Lady look?



Quote:
something born out by the near universal praise for this years shows to be found in the social media, something that most definitely wasn't the case a few years ago (especially in 2012).
I'd say the Jayhawk's Facebook presence has grown considerably since then (Like's etc), so not really a fair comparison.


Quote:
Also, unlike the 2009-2012 version of the band, the current lineup is performing music from all eras of the band's long history while, understandably, concentrating on the material from the recent reissues, making for a much more pleasurable fan experience.
I'd disagree there. I found the Mockingbird time tour setlist much more interesting. Then again, I like rock music, whereas the post TTGG stuff is more like muzak.


Quote:
Speaking of which, the implication that playing a "rehab clinic" is somehow a "bad" billing (ala Spinal Tap playing an afternoon tea party at an Air Force Base) is particularly offensive and only an ignorant

There are much worse things than addiction. Like ebola, or dementia, or stroke. And you don't have to work at those for years to get them, nor do you choose them.

Quote:
The band in its current lineup has every right to earn a living supporting albums that were made after Olson had quit the band, and to do so using a name they are perfectly - and legally - entitled to use. For someone to take issue with that - and to use vague, unsubstantiated "promises" as evidence
So Olson and his manager are lying?


Quote:
Bitterness and negativity are terrible personality traits and will surely pave the way to estrangement from proper society, not to mention a surefire way to guarantee an increasingly irrelevant career.
It sounds like Olson really struck a nerve.

Regardless of who did what, or what the bottom line truth is here, or who's self-centered or who's bitter, Olson's wishes, as founder of the band and name, should be respected.

It's time to hang the Jayhawks up. As a longtime fan of both sides, I think it's embarrassing, and classless to continue on for the second time, as if nothing was learned.

Last edited by Brown Jenkin : 09-02-2014 at 09:10 PM.
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  #25  
Old 09-02-2014
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sacred roots sacred roots is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
And how is that any different from Gary's Dana Carvey Church Lady look?
C'mon, Gary's hot. One of the female radio hosts on a session Gary did this morning said so.


Quote:
I'd say the Jayhawk's Facebook presence has grown considerably since then (Like's etc), so not really a fair comparison.
Nope, hardly grown at all since 2011. The metrics on the band's FB page (likes, shares, etc) were off the hook after the reissues and tour announcements earlier this summer, comparable to band's who have substantially bigger FB fan numbers (like Wilco, for instance, who have roughly 10x the number of FB fans as the Jayhawks). They certainly blew away the numbers - adjusted for # of fans - for anything during the MT era. I do this shit for a living - trust me.


Quote:
I'd disagree there. I found the Mockingbird time tour setlist much more interesting. Then again, I like rock music, whereas the post TTGG stuff is more like muzak.
Tomato / tomahto. Pointless to argue tastes, but I do know - and have the evidence to back it up - that the number of people who complained about no SOL/Smile/RDM material being performed during 2009-2012 was substantial - and I continue to hear it to this day, long after that era has ended. In comparison, you can count on one hand the number of people who have complained about the lack of HTH/TTGG material in recent set lists - or for Olson not being in the band for that matter. The truth is that the MT era created an "elephant in the corner" situation that eventually crippled the band. You and others may prefer not to hear the SOL/Smile/RDM material performed live - and you're perfectly entitled to that opinion. But you have to be delusional to deny that a significant number of people do want to hear that material, something totally understandable with a band like The Jayhawks who have generated fans for all eras of their long career, even ones that you don't like. Call me crazy, but I don't think it's exactly career suicide to offer up a setlist that makes some attempt to cover all eras of your output.


Quote:
There are much worse things than addiction. Like ebola, or dementia, or stroke. And you don't have to work at those for years to get them, nor do you choose them.
Wow, are you serious? Do people choose to get cancer? Dementia? Do people choose to become addicted? Speaking as someone who has lost family and dear friends through addiction I can't imagine how screwed up a person must be to say something like that. Yeah, people just decide to become addicts all the time. Can you really be that insensitive and uncaring? If so, you're pretty much a horrible human being and I have no hesitation in saying that.


Quote:
So Olson and his manager are lying?
The proof is in the pudding. The Jayhawks just reissued three albums and are on the road supporting them billed as The Jayhawks, as is their right, while Olson is slinging dirty laundry in the press.

To repeat: The Jayhawks have every legal - and moral - right to earn a living promoting albums they made under that name, regardless of who's in the band. If Olson doesn't like that he's entitled to pursue whatever legal remedies he has at his disposal, a situation that hasn't changed since 1996 when The Jayhawks continued on without him for almost a decade. The fact that he hasn't done anything since 1996 speaks volumes.


Quote:
It sounds like Olson really struck a nerve.
Oh god no! This story has been in the works for 9 months and rehashes events that took place up to 4 years ago. It's ancient history in every sense of the word except for those who choose to be consumed by negativity and bitterness. The band is so far over this that it's not even funny. They haven't even given it a thought for several months until the recent article in the Strib. Nobody in the band gives 2 shits about this "story" because nobody in the band is living in the past. Everybody couldn't be more excited about the reissues and playing live shows that are actually fun for everyone involved, including the audiences. The difference between 2014 and 2012 is palpable - and profound.

Quote:
Regardless of who did what, or what the bottom line truth is here, or who's self-centered or who's bitter, Olson's wishes, as founder of the band and name, should be respected.
Please re-read my earlier post. Olson didn't name the band alone and he certainly doesn't legally own the name.

As for respect, thats a two way street, a concept that evidently is beyond the grasp of some people.

Quote:
It's time to hang the Jayhawks up.
You're free to move on anytime you want. I'm sure the band and its many fans will somehow find a way to survive without you.
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  #26  
Old 09-02-2014
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sacred roots sacred roots is offline
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Originally Posted by Brown Jenkin View Post
As a longtime fan of both sides, I think it's embarrassing, and classless to continue on for the second time, as if nothing was learned.
Embarrassing? What about the fact that 3 of their best albums were out of print and a record company actually had enough faith to reissue them, just like HTH and TTGG (which, btw, are out of print - again). What was the band supposed to do, say no? And if you release something, doesn't it make sense to promote it by playing some live shows - maybe even with a period-appropriate lineup? Do you think the Jayhawks are independently wealthy? Why shouldn't they be able to tour to support records they made using the name they made them with? Are you trying to deny them the right to do the same thing they did when Olson was in the band a few years ago? I love it when people feel entitled to tell other people how they should or shouldn't earn a living, especially musicians in the current music biz climate.

And, don't kid yourself, The Jayhawks have learned plenty the last few years.
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  #27  
Old 09-02-2014
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One of the most interesting claims from Olson in the article is that he wrote 95% of MT. This record always sounded to me like about a 50/50 split. I personally really enjoy Marks writing - but this surprises me.
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  #28  
Old 09-02-2014
Brown Jenkin Brown Jenkin is offline
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Originally Posted by sacred roots View Post
C'mon, Gary's hot. One of the female radio hosts on a session Gary did this morning said so.
I didn't knock his looks. I just don't think it's fair to judge Olson's old time granpappy act when Louris has a little church lady going on.




Quote:
Nope, hardly grown at all since 2011. The metrics on the band's FB page (likes, shares, etc) were off the hook after the reissues and tour announcements earlier this summer, comparable to band's who have substantially bigger FB fan numbers (like Wilco, for instance, who have roughly 10x the number of FB fans as the Jayhawks). They certainly blew away the numbers - adjusted for # of fans - for anything during the MT era. I do this shit for a living - trust me.
I've been visiting the page for a long time, and the Likes really ramped up during Mockingbird Time and the festivals. The last two years have added even more.




Quote:
Tomato / tomahto. Pointless to argue tastes, but I do know - and have the evidence to back it up - that the number of people who complained about no SOL/Smile/RDM material being performed during 2009-2012 was substantial - and I continue to hear it to this day, long after that era has ended.

And no doubt the people calling for Olson to return was also substantial after he left (myself included). This forum is just one sample size.


Quote:
In comparison, you can count on one hand the number of people who have complained about the lack of HTH/TTGG material in recent set lists - or for Olson not being in the band for that matter.
I, and everyone I know who is into the alternative music scene were extremely disappointed that Olson left. These are the people who showed up during the Mockingbird Time tour, when there was quite the buzz, and the Jayhawks actually had new material out.



Quote:
The truth is that the MT era created an "elephant in the corner" situation that eventually crippled the band. You and others may prefer not to hear the SOL/Smile/RDM material performed live - and you're perfectly entitled to that opinion.
I never said that. There are some great songs there. The problem with that era was consistency. Gary was amazing at bringing three or so five star caliber tracks, and Olson's steady songwriting filled in the rest.

Now, for every "Angelyne" there's a "Come to the River" or "Madman". Not to mention faux-Lennon clunkers like "Don't Let the World Get In your Way".



Quote:
But you have to be delusional to deny that a significant number of people do want to hear that material, something totally understandable with a band like The Jayhawks who have generated fans for all eras of their long career, even ones that you don't like. Call me crazy, but I don't think it's exactly career suicide to offer up a setlist that makes some attempt to cover all eras of your output.

Something happened to the Jayhawks when Olson left, and it happened to him, too. The Jayhawks need a producer, a whip-master. The songs became draggier, slower tempo, less tight, less focused, and sort of clunky. They were at their best when they almost had that At San Quentin speed thing going.

They had great energy on the Smile tour, and despite whatever went on behind the scenes during Mockingbird time, the energy was back big time.


Quote:
Wow, are you serious? Do people choose to get cancer? Dementia? Do people choose to become addicted? Speaking as someone who has lost family and dear friends through addiction I can't imagine how screwed up a person must be to say something like that. Yeah, people just decide to become addicts all the time. Can you really be that insensitive and uncaring? If so, you're pretty much a horrible human being and I have no hesitation in saying that.
Sorry, I've worked with dementia patients that didn't drink or do drugs their entire lives. I've met kids with cancer, who never took drugs or drank.

Please don't lump in addiction with diseases that choose YOU. These kids didn't go to a pharmacy or a bar for a year and order up scripts or vodka and practice.

You don't work at getting dementia or cancer. You don't consciously choose, over months and years, day in and day out to get those diseases.



Quote:
The proof is in the pudding. The Jayhawks just reissued three albums and are on the road supporting them billed as The Jayhawks, as is their right, while Olson is slinging dirty laundry in the press.
Sure, that is their right. And it's my right (and others I know) to find it unseemly.


Quote:
The fact that he hasn't done anything since 1996 speaks volumes.
Yes, it does. But not in the way you think.




Quote:
The band is so far over this that it's not even funny. They haven't even given it a thought for several months until the recent article in the Strib. Nobody in the band gives 2 shits about this "story" because nobody in the band is living in the past.

Right. No one in the band is living in the past. They're only touring on three recently-out-of-print albums from a decade+ ago.

Meanwhile, Olson is releasing an album of all new music this month.

What was it you said about "pudding"?
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  #29  
Old 09-02-2014
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Originally Posted by lukpac View Post
To each their own, and I'm sure even plenty of Gary fans will disagree with me, but I've found the Gary and "Gary and friends" shows over the past few years far more entertaining than the shows with the 1995 lineup. The relatively static setlists of the full band shows didn't help. As always, I hesitate to be too critical, because I don't want it to seem like I'm ragging on the band, but "meh" is what I often felt at the full band shows.

Also, thumbs up to PD's post.
They are a personal favorite of mine too. They were fun and I hope Gary does more of them.

Two thumbs up for PD's post!!!!
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  #30  
Old 09-02-2014
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There are much worse things than addiction. Like ebola, or dementia, or stroke. And you don't have to work at those for years to get them, nor do you choose them.
What an ignorant statement!!!! I bet you never had anyone close to you go through an addiction. Shame on you!
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