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fortuleo
09-10-2014, 06:14 AM
Discussing yesterday the "olson" songs played during the current tour, I realized that I've never known who is supposed to be the main writer of some HTH and TTGG songs.
If someone can help me on that, I'd appreciate.

Crowded In The Wings
Clouds
Take Me With You (When You Go)
Sister Cry
Wichita

Over My Shoulder
Real Light
See him on the Street
Pray for Me
Ten Little Kids

bryguy
09-10-2014, 07:35 AM
My guess is that PD is the only one here that can answer that. In general it seems (though I'm sure there are many exceptions) the one singing lead is the originator, and presumably, the key writer. You could go song by song and get a pretty good idea, albeit not definitively. Others may be able to add more.

LildeviladyK
09-10-2014, 07:45 AM
Wichita and Over My Shoulder belong to Olson unequivocally

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 07:54 AM
Wichita and Over My Shoulder belong to Olson unequivocally

Yes that was my guess.

What about t the other songs mentioned above ? I remember a gig, I think in London, RDM tour, where Tim sang "Clouds", Levon Helm style. On record, it's Mark singing lead, of course. But that same night (as I remember) someone in the crow requested "Two Angels" ang Gary said something like "we can't play that, I didn't write it too bad, it's one of my favorite Jayhawks songs". Made me think that "Clouds" was his, but I could never be sure.

axeeugene
09-10-2014, 08:30 AM
The fact that damn near every single live show during Olson's short-lived return began with "Wichita" should tell you all you need to know - not only about authorship, but also about certain attitudes of band member(s) during that time.

Thank goodness that's over with.

JoMama
09-10-2014, 10:41 AM
The fact that damn near every single live show during Olson's short-lived return began with "Wichita" should tell you all you need to know - not only about authorship, but also about certain attitudes of band member(s) during that time.

Thank goodness that's over with.

I hope they get together and hug it out. If only to reconcile just so you have something to whine about. You're sometimes rather clever... :)

But realy, does every thread have to be polluted with you toxic people? You attacked Doriann and called her homophobic for using a word that perfectly applies to people who come off as if they're regulars on Cheers. And now you added 'vile' to your avatar, just like your barstool buddy added "butt buddy" to his. That's rather low...

bryguy
09-10-2014, 11:06 AM
Wichita and Over My Shoulder belong to Olson unequivocally

I could totally see that- and he sings lead/melody on both.

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 01:25 PM
the part that goes "still I know you're true ooh oooh" followed by that magnificent guitar lick, still sounds pretty "lourisesque" (??) to me.

bryguy
09-10-2014, 02:01 PM
Like writers in a lot of bands, Gary and Mark chose to share songwriting credits. Some songs seem clearly from one or the other, but I don't think we'll ever know who the key writer was on each song. I think I remember Gary once saying that he wouldn't sing Nevada, CA without Mark since he considered it a Mark song. How that plays out with other songs we may never know. Gary always makes himself available to fans after shows- if you see them, hang out after and ask him. I'm sure he'd tell you.

Brown Jenkin
09-10-2014, 02:02 PM
The fact that damn near every single live show during Olson's short-lived return began with "Wichita"


"Wichita" is just fantastic sharp-edged alternative rock, something that went bye-bye after Olson left.

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 02:32 PM
"Wichita" is just fantastic sharp-edged alternative rock, something that went bye-bye after Olson left.

Oh man, there's no denying you're good. Real' good. Bravo.

Seriously, I'd really like to know for See him on the street (Olson ??) and Pray for me (???).

axeeugene
09-10-2014, 02:37 PM
Oh man, there's no denying you're good. Real' good. Bravo.

Really? I think he's phoning it in these days. Good trolls at least have to have *some* grounding in reality.

sacred roots
09-10-2014, 02:40 PM
Gary and Mark made a decision early on to have a joint songwriting credit. Like all such arrangements - from Lennon/McCartney on down - the actual "who did what" is usually known only to the creators. But not always - not surprisingly, after 30+ years, memories get foggy. Indeed, in post-Beatles interviews (like the famous 1980 Playboy one) Lennon frequently misremembered the past, taking credit for things he didn't do in Beatles songs and vice versa.

The easy answer with Olson/Louris is: "it depends." In most cases I think it's safe to assume that the lead vocalist on a song was probably the primary lyricist, although with so many of the songs essentially having two lead vocalists (aka the "univoice") that's probably not always the best rule to work with. I think it's safe to say that the songwriting in the O/L partnership ran the gamut from one person doing most everything to a true 50/50 collaboration. Who wrote what verse or composed what part of the melody or who came up with the bridge are the kind of little details that maybe even Mark and Gary no longer entirely remember.

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 02:50 PM
Of course, sure, yeah. But everybody knows Gary's the main (sole) writer of Blue and Mark's the main (sole) writer of Two Angels. Some songs fall somewhere in the middle, maybe it's the case for some of the songs I mentioned, maybe not, that's exactly
what I'd like to know.
If I asked the same about "In My Life" on a Beatles board, someone would answer "oh, it's supposed to be a Lennon song, but there's a controversy there because McCartney claims he wrote the tune to Lennon's words."

greekguy
09-10-2014, 02:50 PM
I can pretty much guarantee if a writer wrote this:

Norm: Good evening everybody!

Cliff Clavin: How's it going Norm?

Norm: Pretty great now that I am here with all my Butt Buddies!

That writer would have gotten fired first by the censors at NBC and then by the producers of Cheers.

Nobody would want to take credit for that line.

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 02:55 PM
Sorry to say, GreekGuy, but you're less good than Brown Jenkin.

lukpac
09-10-2014, 02:55 PM
Of course, sure, yeah. But everybody knows Gary's the main (sole) writer of Blue and Mark's the main (sole) writer of Two Angels.

Are you sure about Blue? Mark and Gary have both played it at solo shows, and in fact Mark just posted a video of him and Ingunn singing it. I assumed that one was a fairly collaborative effort.

sacred roots
09-10-2014, 02:56 PM
"Wichita" is just fantastic sharp-edged alternative rock...

God knows I love "Witchita" - I truly do. Absolutely one of the best early Jayhawks songs. But having it open almost every single set for over 100+ shows in 2 years is the kind of setlist stagnation that tests the patience of even the most diehard fan. I lost count of the number of people who saw multiple shows during that era who made a point of commenting on how stale the setlist became. It even turned into something of a private in-joke for some fans: "gee, I wonder what the opener will be?" Things started out at 2010-11 Jayhawks shows with "OMG, this is the most amazing setlist ever!" and, within a year, it was "Uh, this is sort of the same show we saw last year; don't they know any more songs?" And the complainers weren't (usually) referencing the SOL/Smile/RDM elephant-in-the corner, either. There clearly was a ton of material from the band's first decade that many feel should've been worked into the setlist.

lukpac
09-10-2014, 03:00 PM
God knows I love "Witchita" - I truly do. Absolutely one of the best early Jayhawks songs. But having it open almost every single set for over 100+ shows in 2 years is the kind of setlist stagnation that tests the patience of even the most diehard fan. I lost count of the number of people who saw multiple shows during that era who made a point of commenting on how stale the setlist became. It even turned into something of a private in-joke for some fans: "gee, I wonder what the opener will be?" Things started out at 2010-11 Jayhawks shows with "OMG, this is the most amazing setlist ever!" to "Uh, this is sort of the same show we saw last year; don't they know any more songs?" And such fans weren't (usually) referencing the SOL/Smile/RDM elephant-in-the corner, either. There clearly was a ton of material from the band's first decade that many feel should've been worked into the setlist.

It started to become a joke with predicting what they would play next. "Ok, probably I'd Run Away and then Clouds". Etc.

Besides the obvious elephant, it was a shame they barely touched the Bunkhouse/Blue Earth material.

greekguy
09-10-2014, 03:00 PM
You know it seemed a bit daff to guard him when he's a guard.

bryguy
09-10-2014, 03:01 PM
Gary and Mark made a decision early on to have a joint songwriting credit. Like all such arrangements - from Lennon/McCartney on down - the actual "who did what" is usually known only to the creators. But not always - not surprisingly, after 30+ years, memories get foggy. Indeed, in post-Beatles interviews (like the famous 1980 Playboy one) Lennon frequently misremembered the past, taking credit for things he didn't do in Beatles songs and vice versa.


The Lennon/McCartney analogy is dead on. I had a faint memory of a "credit" issue and Googled it. I found this from an article that appeared in Billboard in 2002. Give special attention to the 4th paragraph. Too funny.


----Article----

Paul McCartney believes the last shall be first. Yoko Ono believes he wants to rewrite history. After 40 years of second billing to his late partner John Lennon, McCartney has turned the tables on his Beatles collaborator by reversing the order of the famous Lennon-McCartney songwriting credit in the liner notes for his Capitol live album, "Back in the U.S."

The two-CD set includes 19 classic Beatles songs billed as written by "Paul McCartney and John Lennon." The flip-flop continues a nasty feud between McCartney and Lennon's widow Ono, who in the past accused the Beatles bassist of "opening a Pandora's box" by changing the credits.

"I think it is fair and accurate for the songs that John declared were mine to carry my name first" McCartney said today (Dec. 18). "This isn't anything I'm going to lose any sleep over, nor is it anything that will cause litigation. But it seems to be harmless to me, after more than 30 years of it being the other way. The truth is that this is much ado about nothing and there is no need for anybody to get their knickers in a twist."

"This is not a divisive thing," insisted McCartney spokesman Geoff Baker. "It's not Lennon or McCartney. Even if Paul did 95% or more on these songs, he's not asking that John's name be taken off. He just doesn't think it should be first."

Ono's spokesman, Elliott Mintz, disagreed. "There's no question this is an attempted act of Beatle revisionism," Mintz said. "And it does appear to be an attempt to rewrite history." Mintz said that Ono had no plans to sue McCartney over the swap and was "feeling secure in the fact that the original Lennon-McCartney agreement still stands."

This particular intra-Beatles spat -- one of many since the megaband dissolved in 1970 -- dates back seven years, although it started with "Yesterday." When the surviving members of the Fab Four began releasing their acclaimed "Anthology" series in 1995, McCartney approached Ono about flipping the Lennon-McCartney credit for the hit single.

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 03:12 PM
Are you sure about Blue?

Oh no, certainly not "sure". I hear it as a collaboration (much like "Rose Society", for instance), but I remember Gary telling me it was his song ("my song", was the terms he used), when asked directly. Same day he told me that "Radio King" was a Tweedy song to which he only added the bridge.

bryguy
09-10-2014, 03:13 PM
Are you sure about Blue? Mark and Gary have both played it at solo shows, and in fact Mark just posted a video of him and Ingunn singing it. I assumed that one was a fairly collaborative effort.

It was written by The Thorns! Melodically and lyrically it seems more like a Gary tune. It is a "uni" tune though- so, hard to tell.

axeeugene
09-10-2014, 03:24 PM
Sorry to say, GreekGuy, but you're less good than Brown Jenkin.

I think that's what he shoots for - like the post-Downward Spiral Trent Reznor deliberately trying to make unlistenable albums. It's performance art...just not especially entertaining performance art. But I'm sure he has his reasons.

But you know, McCartney hasn't even been *trying* to make unlistenable records this past decade or so...

fortuleo
09-10-2014, 03:26 PM
Since denny laine is out of the picture, Macca lost that san quentin alternative rock feel.

JoMama
09-10-2014, 04:47 PM
The way I read it some time back was that McCartney approached Yoko to change 'Yesterday' by taking John's name off it completely, since he had essentially done it totally solo. Yoko said no.

As for whether 'Blue' sounds more like Gary, well, all that comes down to the "Blue From Now On' demo, and how it evolved from there. Who knows--there was a distinctive "band sound" coming out of HTH and TTGG when you consider how the arrangements grew out of the demos. I'm wondering if there's more than just Olson/Louris to those arrangements.

JoMama
09-10-2014, 05:01 PM
I can pretty much guarantee if a writer wrote this:

Norm: Good evening everybody!

Cliff Clavin: How's it going Norm?

Norm: Pretty great now that I am here with all my Butt Buddies!

That writer would have gotten fired first by the censors at NBC and then by the producers of Cheers.

Nobody would want to take credit for that line.

Not for a minute. In your hypothetical situation of a writer putting those words down, the writer probably would have been asked to re-write them because some people would take it in the "wrong" way, not fired. I'm sure the editors of TV writing are constantly smoothing over language usage, especially something that "controversial". They may have even been a discussion over sensitive language or a reminder of their annual sensitivity training.
The sad thing is, you knew the context she used it in and you still played along with the "PC Police" reaction to one word, just because you are you, and consistently so.

girl incognito1
09-10-2014, 05:14 PM
Since denny laine is out of the picture, Macca lost that san quentin alternative rock feel.

Ha!!!!!! It could be worst...Denny is still listed as ex Moody Blues member. ;):D:cool:

J. Chamberlain
09-10-2014, 08:48 PM
We should all censor ourselves. We never really know who else might be reading this crap on the internet. I feel stupid (pun intended) for bringing up the p-o-t word. No one would want to compromise their ability to punctuate. God can still use me as a bad example in that way. I'm not saying it's the greatest choice to make. But if you're over 21, go for it. At least wait until your brain develops before you start chipping away at it.

But one thing I don't understand is why the 12 Step people can't work the steps on their own cigarette addiction problems. I did quit the cigarettes a few years ago now. Just look for the people huddled around a church smoking, if you want to find the local AA meeting in your area.

Anyway, we've all jumped off the tracks on this website. I'm not even sure if the tracks were ever here, or we're like so many trains trying to run each other over. You can't say some things on the internet now, that you could, maybe even ten years ago. Remove a comma there at your will, reader.

In all seriousness, let's just try to be nice to each other on this website. That's my suggestion. I will have to remember to take my own advice.

ON TOPIC: Interesting discussion forming here about the lyrics. Gary is doing about three songs now that, I think, right off the top of my head, sound like Mark songs. I'm not sure if they really are Mark songs or not now. I will have to go back through the Jayhawksology notes left on this thread.

J. Chamberlain
09-10-2014, 09:02 PM
This website is like an old saloon from the 2003 internet. And I think I did just see some vomit on the screen.

axeeugene
09-10-2014, 10:22 PM
We should all censor ourselves.

No we shouldn't.

Making an effort to be nice is one thing. But avoiding saying something because someone else might be offended or might dislike what you have to say or be too tender to handle it is another. Say what you mean. If people can't accept confronting potentially challenging material, they might do better to stay off the internet altogether. I hear it's a pretty scary place.

The who wrote what discussion is a potentially interesting parlor game, but since - as PD pointed out - even the artists themselves can't always be counted on to have reliable memories on the subject, that's all it should ever be. It sure shouldn't be the foundation for acrimony, either on the part of the artists or the fans.

Maybe we should just have fun guessing, picking pieces that sound like they might be written by one or another...as has already started in this thread.

This kinda reminds me of the "Another Fine Day" brouhaha, when Tweedy said to Gary, "You know I'm gonna get blamed for that," even though it was all Louris.

That's how I remember it, anyway!

J. Chamberlain
09-10-2014, 10:38 PM
I was just playing Jesus Christ's advocate. But now I'm probably taking the Lord's name in vain... I have mixed feelings about my own behavior on the internet. Sometimes I think about unknown causalities like that.

You mentioned someone with an "alt." causing problems, btw. I say it's all you damned drinkers causing the problems! We could take my own personal problems and compound them by the board's existing problems, to add new layers of drama to the whole equation....

I like writing. It's good to have freedom of expression zones. Lenny Bruce is dead but his ghost lives on and on.

J. Chamberlain
09-10-2014, 10:43 PM
I shouldn't even say "playing" Jesus Christ's advocate. I don't want to go to hell. God is dead on the internet. That's too bad.

J. Chamberlain
09-10-2014, 11:12 PM
I don't know what thread to add this onto, but I wanted to at least attempt to bring this thread back to the Jayhawks....

Found a website that shows "Tailspin" as Gary's most-played song. I don't know how they're compiling their data. It made me wince a little bit when I read this. I also laughed at the same time.

http://www.setlist.fm/setlists/gary-louris-7bd666b8.html

"Tailspin" is one of my least favorite Gary songs! He holds onto it like Bob Dylan held onto "Honest With Me," in concert. For the love of God: Let go of "Tailspin." You want to talk about a "stinker," just sayin'.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 12:03 AM
Why are the beer drinking teachers causing all the problems on this website? Ask yourselves that question. This is good pot. Okay, keep fighting with each other if you want to, I'm going to bed. Goodnight Jayhawks.

JoMama
09-11-2014, 03:51 AM
Why are the beer drinking teachers causing all the problems on this website? Ask yourselves that question. This is good pot. Okay, keep fighting with each other if you want to, I'm going to bed. Goodnight Jayhawks.

We need more pot-smoking teachers then?

JoMama
09-11-2014, 05:07 AM
The fact that damn near every single live show during Olson's short-lived return began with "Wichita" should tell you all you need to know - not only about authorship, but also about certain attitudes of band member(s) during that time.

Thank goodness that's over with.

members, plural. It takes two to tango. If one has an addiction problem and one is just there for a paycheck, those are problems: plural. Where's your English Comprehension 101?

We should all censor ourselves.

But one thing I don't understand is why the 12 Step people can't work the steps on their own cigarette addiction problems... Just look for the people huddled around a church smoking, if you want to find the local AA meeting in your area...


No we shouldn't.

Making an effort to be nice is one thing. But avoiding saying something because someone else might be offended or might dislike what you have to say or be too tender to handle it is another. Say what you mean. If people can't accept confronting potentially challenging material, they might do better to stay off the internet altogether. I hear it's a pretty scary place.


12-steppers needing a smoke--that's simply because cigarette addiction is legal. This town's opening up all kinds of breweries, independent craft spots with a bar on site, and large (New Belgium and Sierra Nevada), and every strip mall has a "Vape" store--selling tobacco vaporizing nonsense.

Censoring oneself is fine, it's not the same as Big Brother stopping you from dropping the F-word into every sentence on TV. Some people SHOULD censor themselves, and I'm sure you know of at least one maniac (hint: the one with a tiny mustache) who needed to shut the eff up before he nearly destroyed his own country. Some people just can't handle everything they hear. Self-censorship was not on that guy's business plan.

So God is dead on the internet? Hah! What's coming to this country will prove you wrong. Like the old margarine commercial said "it's not nice to fool Mother Nature"...

I return you now to your careful dissection of Jayhawks songs to further crucify Mark Olson and glorify Gary Louris, and attack the character of any Olson fans you encounter.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 07:10 PM
Concerning Gary and Mark and the Jayhawks: I wouldn't want to upset those guys. I've appreciated a good amount of their collected output. However, "Smile" is like "Many Colored Kite" to me, I'm just not overly interested in that stuff.

If freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose, then I'm glad I can still post whatever I want here. I can critique the Jayhawks here. That's freedom of expression to me. Maybe the artists need to be challenged sometimes. Maybe they should seek a counter-opinion at times. If not, there are plenty of other words to read in the world.

I'll always give those guys another chance, in terms of buying they're next offering. I like the Jayhakws/Jayhawks-related stuff that much.

Now I forget what thread I'm on. I can't believe the Jayhawks are not releasing RDM Bonus Disc with the reissue! I seriously didn't know that until I just read the RDM Bonus Dic thread. I don't even want to talk about it.

Btw, I hope you didn't compare me to Satan and/or Hitler, Jomama. This is my happy hour, so my reading comprehension isn't at its peek. Enjoy your Sierra Nevadas. All a Vape does is turn your favorite, formerly combustible, botanical into steam to be inhaled. Surely, only a fascist wouldn't want Vape culture (with regulation) to thrive.

Now I'm going to extremes, have a good night everybody. I'm just hear reading about one of my favorite bands The Jayhawks. Don't mind me. I should be turning off the computer here shortly.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 07:12 PM
All of a sudden I want to go back and delete any post where I said "pot." Nobody quote me. I'll go back through this later and you'll think I'm a saint.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 07:44 PM
Should be "their," instead of "they're." I'm too tired for this. Enjoy your drinks. If you get sick of fighting with Pillow Pants, I'll stand in for a while another day. And I know I have editing to do next time I'm here. I don't know why Pillow Pants ever changed his name. Now there's a mystery. Anyway, I just wanted to derail the fighting here with some other shenanigans but now I've opened up whole other cans of worms that I didn't intend to open in the first place. This is your brain on internet.

JoMama
09-11-2014, 09:46 PM
No J, I wasn't comparing you to those people. I was responding to the idea of "self-censorship".
Freedom of speech is fine, and I guess it's just too damn bad if someone takes what you say "wrongly". It's their fault, then, eh Mr. prof?
For sure, I wear a cloak of decency and correct everyone's wrongs... Nah, I've got plenty of my own luggage, I certainly don't want to pay $30 per bag for other peoples' luggage. Just don't drop steaming turds on my friends.

Keep writing, when it's fun it's a fun read, Mr. Chamberlain. :)

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 09:46 PM
Jomama, we have to go back. We will both need to go back and edit our posts now. Remember that Bob Dylan song: "Ain't Gonna Go To Hell For Anybody"? If you don't go back with me, Jomama, I could go to hell. My fate is in your hands, strangely enough. Lost meets Tron with Jomama vs. alt. in epic battle.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 09:47 PM
Oh, I guess we posted at the same time. It must mean we have to go back. See.

You're an interesting writer, Jomama. I do feel badly I'm behaving like it's 2003. And yes, maybe some of us here still party like it's 1999 but everything catches up to us eventually.

JoMama
09-11-2014, 09:50 PM
J Lost meets Tron with Jomama vs. alt. in epic battle.

I never watched 'Lost'.
Skipped Tron too.

Your fate is in your own hands, consider how your judge yourself, and for sure, don't worry about others.

JoMama
09-11-2014, 09:51 PM
Oh, I guess we posted at the same time. It must be a sign. See: we have to go back.

there's no going back; onward through the fog, I say :)

P.S. It's late here, I gots to get up early and meet a guy down by the river. A real clever one, a 32nd degree Mason itching for 33, but struggling with some heavy duty stuff right now. I guess I was supposed to watch the Fisher King tonight.
Where do we need to go back to, in your view? Mull that one over, perhaps answer tomorrow or next day, sir.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 09:57 PM
:mad:

theweekend
09-11-2014, 10:02 PM
Discussing yesterday the "olson" songs played during the current tour, I realized that I've never known who is supposed to be the main writer of some HTH and TTGG songs.
If someone can help me on that, I'd appreciate.

Crowded In The Wings OLSON
Clouds OLSON
Take Me With You (When You Go) SHARED/LEAN OLSON
Sister Cry OLSON
Wichita OLSON

Over My Shoulder OLSON
Real Light SHARED/LEAN LOURIS
See him on the Street SHARED/LEAN OLSON
Pray for Me OLSON
Ten Little Kids OLSON
See above

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 10:08 PM
P.S. It's late here, I gots to get up early and meet a guy down by the river. A real clever one, a 32nd degree Mason itching for 33, but struggling with some heavy duty stuff right now. I guess I was supposed to watch the Fisher King tonight.
Where do we need to go back to, in your view? Mull that one over, perhaps answer tomorrow or next day, sir.


I can answer now but you might be reading it later, in the future. Sounds like an interesting day shaping up for you. Good to read you again.

It was just something from that tv show, they said they "had to go back." I kind of gave up on tv after that show.

I know God is even watching on the internet, and I'm not being sarcastic! OK, back to our regularly scheduled thread... I don't think there's ever been a thread here that hasn't been derailed. Sorry God, and Gary's mom.

J. Chamberlain
09-11-2014, 10:19 PM
I should have said Pillow Pants was the only one who had enough decency to read me the riot act. That remains a fact to this day.

girl incognito1
09-12-2014, 12:16 AM
It was just something from that tv show, they said they "had to go back." I kind of gave up on tv after that show.



Lost was awesome!!! It was frustrating at times and a riveting show. I need to get out the dvds again! :cool::D

J. Chamberlain
09-12-2014, 10:21 PM
I loved that show! I need to check out the old episodes on netflix.